HOME | POLITICS | SPORTS | LIFE | SCI/TECH | OPEDS | HELPFUL TIPS
|
July 12, 2005 John L. Waters wrote: "Okay. If this article upsets your apple cart, find a fatal flaw in it. Attack the facts or the reasoning, NOT the author. FOCUS ON THE ISSUE that is the yogic force." Gladly, but first, a correction: "At the end of a recent article on useless-knowledge.com the articulate and well-known U-K writer Matt Dillahunty has stated, "You're free to believe, as most everyone did for millennia, that the Earth is the center of our solar system and the universe, but that won't make it not so." Actually, the final words should be "but that won't make it so." A simple misquotation, but one that may prove important if we start focusing on proving a universal negative. Next, it's claimed that I would likely agree with the statement; "You're free to believe yogic force exists, but that doesn't make it so." And he's right, I would agree with that. However, we immediately begin to encounter problems. Mr. Waters' next claim was: "According to Mathew, people just have to experience the yogic force to verify that this force exists." Now, we've switched from me (Matt) to someone with a similar name, but that's not the problem. The problem is that personal experience is not necessarily the only acceptable way to prove the existence of such a force. If that is, in fact, the only way to prove that it exists, then we can make a logical argument that the existence of such a force is no different from its non-existence. If a force exists, it either affects this reality, or it doesn't. If it does, there must be a way to observe and quantify its effects. If not, then it isn't fundamentally different from something which doesn't exist. If the only method of determining its existence is to experience it for oneself and not everyone experiences the same thing or anything, how can that be shown to be any more real than a delusion. The mind is powerful. It can experience a great number of feelings like elation and even create hallucinations. That doesn't mean that those feelings exist because of the divine or because of some mystical force. It's possible, even likely, that attributing such feelings to mysticism is simply a misclassification. "We can even DEFINE God to be the yogic force." Sure, you could also define God to be a strawberry or an orgasm. So, we'll take a look at Mr. Waters' "logic"... He mentions that in an article about atheism, the author claims that to prove God exists, you must first come up with a clear and precise definition of exactly what you mean by the term God. This is fundamental. What answer does Mr. Waters provide us with? "So for the heck of it let's just DEFINE God to be the yogic force." That is not a clear and precise definition. You've simply substituted one undefined term for another. You haven't defined Yogic Force, or God. That's not just a fatal flaw, it's a shattering of your arguments at the very foundations. Anything which follows becomes irrelevant...but we'll continue anyway. He then lists Mathew's explanation about reality not being decided by logic and presumes that I'd agree with him. I wouldn't. His explanation isn't an answer to the original question about logically proving the existence of God and it's a confusing tap-dance around the point. I definitely agree with some of the fundamentals he spoke about, but not his answer in its entirety. Mr. Waters continues: "Okay. So here we are. We just have to experience the yogic force." Wrong. You're simply continuing from a false premise...and the rest of the article continues to do so. You haven't defined the yogic force even remotely. You haven't explained why personal experience is the only proof - or how personal experience is proof and not just delusion. In fact, scientifically speaking, personal experience isn't evidence of anything. People claim to talk to God. People claim to see angels, ghosts and devils. People claim to feel energy, heal with their hands and minds, leave their body and travel around the world, speak to the dead, see the future, find water with sticks, live without eating and heal themselves by a "yogic force". People can claim anything. Anyone who could demonstrate any of these, could claim a quick million from the James Randi Education Foundation (www.randi.org) - yet no one ever has. No one has even passed the preliminary test. Why do you suppose that is? Are all of these people with supernatural abilities simply uninterested in a million dollars? Even to donate to their favorite charity? Have they no interest in enlightening the rest of us to the truths they claim to possess? Odd that they're willing to sell their books and trinkets or run a pay-by-the-minute telephone service to pass along their ideas. "You might study for five years and not experience the yogic force even once." Now that's definitely a good use of one's time... "This doesn't mean the yogic force does not exist." True, though it's a decent indicator and does demonstrate that it's more likely that it doesn't exist. "Some people are a lot more sensitive to this particular sensory channel than others." That claim is simply an ad hoc hypothesis. Where is the proof? I know of a "special force" which will help you play pool like the professionals. Unfortunately not everyone can tap into this force, at least not to the same degree, but for $35/hr I'll give you all the tools and instruction you need to attempt to tap into this special force. I can even introduct you to people who possess and utilize this "special force" regularly. Many of them have won large amounts of cash by tuning into that force. I call it "talent". "Today many persons describe their sensations of the yogic force. I give a number of these on my websites. These descriptions are not mine. They are available at other sources." And Pat Robertson prayed away a hurricane. Where's the proof? Personal testimony isn't proof of anything. I've experienced hallucinations, but I just shrugged them off as pharmaceutically induced - maybe it was God or a "yogic force" and I missed my shot at getting myself "in tune". "For ages scientists simply had no way of seeing that Saturn and Jupiter have many satellites. Eventually the telescope was invented and people began to verify that Saturn and Jupiter have many moons. Even so, a great many prominent citizens refused to look through Galileo's telescope. They said that Galileo's telescope was "the devil's instrument." Galileo was eventually imprisoned, tortured, and forced to recant. Today millions of bright young people laugh at or tremble at the blindness of rich and socially prominent authoritarians. Rich authoritarians in book-learned science continue repeating the same old mistakes." This is the same old argument you've tried before - that people scoffed at ideas in the past which turned out to be true. You're correct. And they also scoffed at many more crazy ideas which didn't turn out to be true. Where's the proof? Galileo had clear proof which was available to everyone. It wasn't just a few people who were able to use that telescope to see what Galileo had seen. Just because an idea is scoffed at, that doesn't make it more likely to be true. Scoffing also doesn't mean it's false...but, depending on who's doing the scoffing and why, you can make some pretty educated bets. "Today a method for observing the yogic force exists, and if they really want to and are willing to make the effort, a great number of (young or young-at-heart) modern scientists can repeatedly sense and describe the yogic force." What method of scientific observation exists? Or are you trying to spin personal experience as scientific proof? "But in many nations even today Adi Da, Jiddu Krishnamurti, Meher Baba and other demonstrably sensitive yoga masters" You say they are "demonstrably" sensitive - please demonstrate this. Where is the proof? "[they] are regarded as "satanic devils" or as "delusional" or as "psychotic" or as "insane." These are just word games. Science history keeps on repeating itself." Ah yes, more of the "science just keeps scoffing at our crazy ideas...if they'd only open their eyes!" "A careful examination of the history of science shows that century after century the highly endowed scientific establishment has played the ridiculous and self-destructive role of ostriches hiding their heads in the sand." Really? What "scientific establishment"? So scientific progress through the centuries is the result of scientists hiding from the obvious? Can you ever offer proof or just claims of persecution? The poor misunderstood mystics, who hold the "real truth" just can't catch a break. Science is continually holding them at bay. "Behold was the medical farce of bloodletting, the medical tragedy of Semmelweiss, the total denial of meteorites,..." All of which were proven wrong by... drum roll, please.... science! Not one was proven wrong by mystics, yogic force, psychics, dowsers, leprechauns or tooth fairies. "Okay. If this article upsets your apple cart, find a fatal flaw in it." Why don't you find a non-flaw...and we'll start over from there? Why don't you offer some evidence or proof for your claims? Why don't you eliminate the persecution you claim to dislike by showing folks the "truth"? "FOCUS ON THE ISSUE that is the yogic force." Sure thing, as soon as you demonstrate what it is. Right now, "yogic force" is just as much of a non-issue as it was when you first started hinting about it. That's the one thing you keep forgetting to do - support your claim. You're making a claim. It's not up to us to disprove it, it's up to you to prove it. You have the responsibility of supporting the claim you make...and you haven't even hinted at attempting to do that. "Remember, even if your reasoning is flawless, one wrong fact or assumption can perpetuate the GI-GO principle: Garbage In-Garbage Out." And I'll thank you for continually demonstrating the truth of that. Some day I might have to read more than your first few paragraphs to find the fatal flaw. ------------ About the author: Matt Dillahunty is an active member of the Atheist Community of Austin (www.atheist-community.org). In addition to his article submissions for Useless-Knowledge, he enjoys e-mail and forum debates. He also hosts/co-hosts on a weekly call-in television program (The Atheist Experience) and a bi-weekly Internet radio program (The Non-Prophets), which are both sponsored by the ACA. After more than 20 years as a fundamentalist Christian, his interest in apologetics, skepticism and critical thinking convinced him that his religious beliefs were the result of irrational, uneducated thought and the beliefs of Christianity and other religions are simply untenable. Email: sans_deity@yahoo.com Tell a friend about this site! ------------ All articles are EXCLUSIVE to Useless-Knowledge.com. Please link to this article rather than copying and pasting it onto your site (which would be unauthorized and illegal). |
||||||
|
|
|||||||
|
