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May 25, 2006 I like Pat, and I said as much in my response article and in the forum thread about his article. However, I think Hurley's faith, if not Hurley himself, falls into the various traps which make faith-based belief silly. Hurley wrote an article with many points, and responded to few of them directly. He did explain that he isn't “one of those Christians”, we all know the type. Michael John McCrae is a good example, the kind who think Jesus blesses America most of all, the kind that mixes new-age conservatism with fundamentalist Christianity. Pat, I believe you – you even went so far as to say that the nation was founded under secular terms and for that, I applaud you. Now, if you'd directly respond to the rest of the specific points you raised, I'd applaud you even more. Not to discredit or disrespect your life in any way, but you aren't the first Christian that lived an immoral or “lacking” life only to find God and change for the better. That is your main evidence – it is how you know personally that God exists, yes? Answer this then: Imagine someone born in India, who is exposed to the Hindu faith, who also lives a bad or empty life. Now, similar to your case, he has a drastic change. Do you think that Jesus did it for him, or was it Vishnu? Of course it wasn't Jesus – we have no data to indicate that random Christians just pop up the world over, instead, we have data which clearly reveals that most people simply turn to the faith in their geographic region. Explain? Can these two faiths be correct? Wouldn't this conflict with the first commandment? Again you claim that atheism is a faith based belief, ignoring that each atheist who responded to you made special notes about how we cannot be sure that gods do not exist. I've offered you “weak atheism” as the view that almost every atheist I've read about, talked too or encountered in any way accepts. Obviously, if you continue to use your own definition of atheism, then a major premise in your piece is wrong. I did say on the forum that you may call me an agnostic if it makes you feel better, but you accomplish little by holding this view. I also, in my response, noted that Christians debate science to no end about that little which we DO know about the world. They used to tell us not to bathe, they used to forbid putting lightning rods on churches. Now they have issues with stem cell research, evolution and other issues turned into politics. Thoughts? Opinions? Explanations? You focus on the 95% that you say we do not know - why can't Christians even accept the 5% which we DO know? You know the answer as well as I – within that 5% is enough to, for example, discredit a literal Bible. You said you don't like being attacked, that you prefer debate, so, let's have a friendly debate. In actuality, most Christians do not like to analyze and debate their own faith, because let's face it, faith is not REALLY evidence, is it? Wouldn't anything in the world go if this was the case? Christians want a special and unique place – they want their rules to be the law of the land, but don't want to be looked at with skeptical eyes. Christianity is to be accepted as some sort of common knowledge backdrop that we should just all accept. This is a left-over from the time when they controlled the West, and people were forced to be Christian. I'd like specific examples of how you deduced that those other faiths which you explored in college are not the real-deal. I wonder if you can do it - after all, we can't disprove reincarnation, can we? ;) Other religions always make American Christians nervous because in order to attack them, they must rely on real-world methods, for example, disputing some historical fact mentioned in the Koran. The danger is obvious – using the same technique points out the inaccuracy of the Christian faith as well. Not a single major religion stands up to these historical and scientific tests. Finally, about this “bully” analogy you used – I doubt even you really buy that one. Towards the very end of your bit, you claimed that you know how atheists such as Thomas Keyes and myself feel, saying that when you were an atheist, that you also felt discriminated against. I do, actually – so, who is the bully? What kind of playground would this be, Pat? The Christian wouldn't be one kid, he would be most of the kids. If we compare the playground to America, to statistics and to jails and so forth, then the bad kids would almost always be the Christians. You wouldn't find the atheists in detention, you would, however, find them on the Dean's list. They wouldn't be going around trying to convert the Christians, quite the contrary, the Christian bully majority would be going around trying to convince the sinning, hell-bound, “different” atheists to join the collective, regardless of their good statistics and manner. Has an atheist ever come knocking on your door, Pat? I'm as militant as I am for political reasons, as I've said over and over. The attack on science is more than I will tolerate from these peaceful people who love God. Pat, you said that you aren't a fundie, and you said that Christians shouldn't use their faith to push politics, so I want you to state publicly that you will support secularism. There are other Christians who do, you realize. Secularism will allow you to continue to practice your faith as Islam advances. For, surely, you don't think atheism will become the main ideal of the land, do you? We'd need to knock on doors to accomplish that or reproduce at a much higher rate or buy congressmen the way the Christians have. ------------ About the author Frederick Smith: I enjoy writing about the positive virtues of humanism - humanists are the good guys. I now have a blog that I will start to increasingly maintain and update. Here is the link: fredsuberview.blogspot.com/ About my personal background and life: I was born, I got some education, worked, ate, and had some kids. It seems I like to write � something that was unknown to me until relatively recently...How's that for detail? ;) Hate mail is welcome unless you are from the Army Of God. Please! It's not that I mind seeing pictures of aborted fetuses in my inbox, but once you've seen one you've pretty much seen them all... Email: dahlek65@gmail.com Comment on this article here! ------------ All articles are EXCLUSIVE to Useless-Knowledge.com. 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